Click to See Complete Forum and Search --> : External Wireless Bridge experience? Need solutions


xSauronx
02-26-2007, 10:24 PM
First Ill give a quick introduction: I started working as an installer for a WISP a few months ago. We work primarily with Motorola Canopy equipment. Prior to this, Ive only ever had limited wireless network experience limited to basic home router/ap equipment (ive made an indoor wireless bridge before, with no trouble)

However, recently we've had a couple of customers in an unusual situation, and it's one I expect to encounter regularly, and would like to be prepared for it. Unfortunately, Im not sure of the best way to go about solving the problem:

I need a building-to-building wireless bridge that will require the use of external antennas, and I honestly don't know a good, cost-effective way to easily set up such a connection.

Ill give two current examples that I need to deal with. Id like to be able to handle the following type of situations with little delay, reliably, without requiring any excessive costs.

Example 1:

We did an install for a customer and took the cat5 line from the SM to his wife's PC inside their home. He wants to share that connection to his shop, a metal building, thats 250' away from his home. He has a *perfectly clear* LOS between the buildings.

I expect the best way would be a wireless router/ap in the home, and a wireless bridge in his shop. However, I dont know what the best antenna equipment will be to use for the situation.

Example 2:

A potential customer has their home built low, and into a hill. We cannot mount our Canopy equipment on their home and get a signal because all around them are other hills and homes.

However, on their property, and probably 80 feet or so away, they have a large metal-construction shop on the top of a hill. From this shop I can get a good enough LOS to an AP that we can give them our service, but I need to get the signal from this shop, into their home. These customers also have a perfect LOS between their shop and home.

I expect to run into this a bit more often, especially as the company acquires new service areas with lousier and lousier terrain ;)

But I have *no* experience with any equipment best-suited for these situations, and after reading and searching a bit, I have learned some, but not enough, except that it would seem a number of people here have quite a bit of experience, and are rather helpful.

We *do* have some flat-panel 15dbi and 11dbi antennas that would probably work for this, but I dont know how I could affordably mount them outside and get them connected to the equipment *inside*.

The canopy is trivial, since we can use cat5 to make the run. But the canopy equipment is a bit overkill for this, of course. Is there any worthwhile equipment I can use that resemble what we do with a 900SM? Antenna w/ coax to the SM (which is, of course, weatherproof, and mounted with the antenna) then cat5 w/ PoE to the router/bridge inside?

We also have some Tranzeo 2.4ghz equipment, but its still a bit pricey for this kind of situation, nevermind overkill :)

If you read all of that....thanks :)

If you dont want to:

*cliffs*

i need some wireless bridges using external equipment thats easy to acquire, reliable, and not too costly. I have no experience setting up short-range equipment for these situations.

golfnut
02-27-2007, 08:09 PM
If you're going to have varying situations that may require different types of bridges or antenna's, the best way to know what works is by testing them yourself. There isn't anything about RF that's cookie-cutter and some products work a lot better than others depending on the situation.

Search Google for these types of products, develop a relationship with a few vendors, get some demo units, determine what performance variables are acceptable, and decide for yourself what works well for your business and customers.

Greg

xSauronx
02-27-2007, 09:55 PM
thing is, right now im looking at 3 situations that could all use the same equipment setup.

my main concern is probably LMR: its pricey, and difficult to run from an antenna outoors, into a home to get to a router/ap/bridge/etc

i could do the following in all situations:

canopy ---------- > router/ap --------> external antenna ===== external antenna -------> bridge -----> client device

bridges, routers, access points....that should be the easy part. id probably favor linksys or buffalo equipment with dd-wrt, but am not sure of the best way to go from these units to the external antennas, since the LMR connections will require a sizeable hole in a clients walls, or us making our own LMR cables and didnt know if there may be a better way to go about all of this. id rather not put large-ish holes in a customer wall for the coax to go through because of the connections.

unless making the LMR connections is relatively easy and trouble-free. i have experience with making coax connections for satellite/cable tv (and one of my employers has been doing that for years) but we've never made any LMR stuff.

unless i can find reasonably priced external bridge units....i dont know if such a thing exists, or where to find it. i grew up getting my computer parts at newegg ;) so i dont really know exactly where to go with this.

we have got some tranzeo units, but using new ones would be quite pricey and, frankly, are overkill for the minor distances involved when you consider that we usually use something like that to cover *miles* as opposed to *yards*

hell, even antennas arent as much of a concern as getting the connection *inside* the clients home without a large hole from the connector.

anyone else have any tips for this, or am i being so verbose as to be unclear?

golfnut
02-28-2007, 09:52 AM
Sounds like you have a plan with some products that are within your budget although you might want to research signal loss over LMR cables.

Personally, I'd use higher end equipment but this is your business and I'm sure you've factored in the ROI on the equipment along with some estimation of time spent on trouble calls (less time with better equipment).

In regards to the comment about Newegg and not knowing how to find information, you can start with Google or search this forum as there's a wealth of information about bridging thatg will require some research work on your part.

Try it and let us know how it goes...

Greg

xSauronx
02-28-2007, 07:39 PM
well the thing is, we *can* use high-end equipment. like i said, i can easily get tranzeo stuff that will do the job, but itll cost the customers an extra grand, which is out of the price range theyre willing to go into (about $500 or so seems to be the max)

is there a middle range between linksys stuff and external antennas and using higher-end tranzeo type equipment that will cost an arm and a leg? our installs for the service arent as pricey....but we make up for it with the service contracts over time.

we wont be getting that with local wireless bridges, so we have to charge full price for parts, plus labor.

ill do a bit more searching. my concern with LMR *is* signal loss, even though we wont be doing bridges more than a couple-hundred feet in distance.

is there any outdoor rated all-in-one radio/antenna equipment that would just need a cat5 w/ PoE run that would cost $150 or $200 per point?

Alan87i
03-01-2007, 11:47 AM
Check this page out ..
http://www.wlanparts.com/c=Duc9swr0pgpsfwTnjHVSUG1AB/category/access_points/
15 dbi rootenna 200 mw
or 50 bucks more there's a 400mw model.
or take a look at the senaco and hook a 24 dbi grid to both or one end of the link.
I'm using edimax 60 mw ap's with about 12 to 16 feet LMR400 at each end with 24-dbi grid antennas at both ends. Signal was in the mid 80" % last time I checked at a distance of 700 or so feet. 16 mbs throughput _Qcheck
Now If I had to do it all over again I would use outdoor equipment POE and if it wasen't strong enough add the 24 DBi grids afterwards.

The Cheaper indoor AP's plus the LMR and adapters and N-connectors cost the same as those 150 to 200 dollar out door ready to go AP's
Cat 5 is way cheaper than LMR .!!!
And like I said if the 15 dbi antennas don't cut it try a 24 dbi grid with short pigtail at one end at a time.
Hope this helps
Allan
VA2CBE

xSauronx
03-01-2007, 01:59 PM
Check this page out ..
http://www.wlanparts.com/c=Duc9swr0pgpsfwTnjHVSUG1AB/category/access_points/
15 dbi rootenna 200 mw
or 50 bucks more there's a 400mw model.
or take a look at the senaco and hook a 24 dbi grid to both or one end of the link.


I did some more searching last night, and between that and your link, i'll have exactly what I need, with a couple different options for hardware and vendors.

thanks! :)

PS: ill update once I run this through my boss and we order and install something, and let everyone know how it went

M/Q
03-01-2007, 03:20 PM
I guess I finally have to comment here. It seems that Greg, (Golfnut) and I agree on many things and using business grade equipment is one of them.

If you have Canopy and Tranzeo equipment available to you, I fail to see any logic in using anything else. Initial low cost will never over rule final RoI. I have gotten to the breaking point these past few weeks dealing with cheap consumer grade equipment. I am at the point where I will refuse to take a project on if they demand using that grade of equipment. I lose money the customer loses money on downtime and I look bad as the equipment is consumer grade Cr**.

There is a reason why Cisco costs so much and is still the number one networking device in the world. Sorry for the diatribe, but what you are trying to do is totally illogical to me at this moment in time.

golfnut
03-01-2007, 06:11 PM
Right on M/Q!

Sauron, we're not trying to be difficult but you are part of a business that is trying to add more customers by extending your signal indoors.

Your customers will always remember when things don't work.

When that bridge link starts bouncing up and down when they're trying to talk on their Vonage phone, about how long do you think they'll be your customer or refer your services to other people?

Cost is obviously a concern to pass on to your customers however, when people value a product or service, they will pay for it. Consider spreading the cost over 12 months if they agree to a longer term contract.

Greg