VoIP phone mfgs that work into APs?

[BobY777]

If anyone knows of any good VoIP wireless phone manufacturers, I would love to hear who they are.

I tried to call Net2phone, but just get a run around trying to find about their XJ100 VoIP phone. That phone is supposed to work directly into an AP.

Only problem is that Net2phone people I talk to don't seem to even know about an XJ100 phone.

But if there other VoIP phone mfgs that make those phones that work into APs, I would love to hear about them.

That way anyone with a VoIP account, like with Vonage, could use their VoIP wireless phone with most any AP that they can access, to make phone calls.

I might want to promote this service as I sell my WiFi installations.

But I need more mfgs then Net2phone, since they don't seem to know anything at all about their XJ100 VoIP phone when I call them.

Thanks

[golfnut]

Bob,

This is really a great idea, but be careful...

Multiple voice and data clients over a wireless network won't work with just any AP. Even with the right APs in place, you need to do capacity planning.

Oceans mentioned a good company on this thread that also sells the phone.

Also keep in mind that wi-fi phones won't work on networks that require username and password access.

Greg

[BobY777]

Hi golfnut:

Maybe I overlooked another phone manufacturer that oceans talked about.

I forget who mentioned theXJ100 phone.

I was hoping that the phone manufacturers would make it possible to enter a name and password so as to get into a WiFi system and thus be able to use the VoIP phone.

I understand that the APs will need to have QoS and most don't for VoIP right now. Maybe firmware upgrades will fix that...hopefully.

I was thinking that VoIP might make hotels want WiFi installations even more...if the VoIP could be used there.

More bandwidth probably would be needed though, if too many users were on.

Thank you much

[spiderbite]

Bob,

Damn son, you must need a wheelchair to get around cause your huge gnads make it impossible to walk properly!

VoIP is where it gets serious. I've tried to answer your questions when I know the answers, but I strongly suggest you hold off on this one for a bit.

I have done VoIP surveys and have even fixed a few that were wrong, but I am no means an expert on the subject.

As you may have discovered by now, there is a lot more experience on this board than I can compete with.

I read these boards not to answer questions, but to glean info from people with more smarts and experience than me.

The capacity planning alone, required for voice, makes me nervous.

There is a lot to it, from number of data vs. phone clients to cell size, aggregate bandwidth, different manufacturer's limitations,

plus whatever the client needs!!

This also requires serious backend planning (vlans, separate vlans for voice and data...gateways for the voice etc...)

I am comfortable with the radio design, but I am such a noob when it comes to backend design...I get it, but I don't think I can do it...and then I definetly need some one else to get the phone to actually work!


Let's just say that your current design criteria will not cut it...You must start thinking smaller, with more overlap, ( No 200 mW radios with sectoral antennas!!)


We are undertaking a massive VoIP initiative here at the Company.

Somebody else did the first one (it ****ed and still doesnt work)

I did the second one (works fine)

However, this is only about my fourth hardcore VoIP project.

I guess not having any fear means you don't know it s going to hurt if you screw up, but given you're situation, I would bring in some big, big guns for the first couple.


I'm serious, this isn't a suggestion. Just being in the same room with some seasoned pros while this is going on will shift your paradigm quite a bit. Enjoy the experience.

[BobY777]

Hi spiderbite:

Thanks for your input.

I knew voice and data over the same AP can be problamatic. That if someone using a computer tries to download a lot of data, that the voice can get jumpy.

I found out that I would need APs that give priority to VoIP packets since they are time sensitive.

Yep you are right about wanting to have smaller cell sizes.

I saw something recently about the minimum bandwidth to get good VoIP. It didn't seem too bad. DSL should be able to do it, if not too many people are on...at least thats what I'm hoping. Especially if VoIP packets are given priority with AP firmware updates.

If this was done at a hotel, I'd be sure to let them know they get what they get. No quality guarantee...especially if it is free to the WiFi user.

I found out that there is a program now that can be put on an iPAQ I think it is, and the iPAQ can be turned into a VoIP phone. The iPAQ has a speaker and microphone in it. Now the iPAQ can input a name and password. I hope the upcoming VoIP phones will have the capability to accept names and passwords so people can get on APs to make VoIP calls.

I'm sure there is a lot more I need to learn. I found out the back end stuff needs to be done by large companies that can manage the national phone number databases and buy trunk lines to tie in with the land lines (from the Internet).

I have spoken to some people on the phone who were using VoIP and it sounded pretty good. But you are right about the laptop users possibly causing problems with VoIP. At least for now they would since the firmware in the APs I have doesn't give priority to VoIP packets.

I do appriciate your input.

Regards,

Bob
P.S. I don't feel old, but I was 61 today. My wife says I don't act my age. I hope she is complementing me...lol.

[spiderbite]

Hell, 61 aint old..thats when you can afford to party...and know how to do it properly.

It also explains your unbridled enthusiasm...you come from the era when it was generally still held that this is America and you should be responsible for your own destiny.

You are the guys we look up to, Guy gets out of bed one day and says, " I m going to start my own business, so I gotta learn about it!!"

That's a chromosome I didn't get and I covet yours.

Anyway, lets noodle this out...

for what reason would you want WVoIP ? This is a finite amount of resources you cannot plan for capacity without knowing the capacity.

I'm steering this conversation to encourage you to not think of VoIP in the public sector sense of the word, but in the back of the house.

In medical facilities, it is a very good thing to have VoIP. Nurses, doctors, IT geeks, whoever...can be reached instantaneously without being paged etc...with a proper design you can even be found within a few feet...but that's another post.

But I know how many they want now, and they have given me an idea of how many they would like to support later. You cannot (at the current technology) just provide cell coverage like the cell phone people.

Maybe one day....but to think in terms of having bandwidth laying around waiting for someone to have a vonage phone who might want to use it....

On the other hand, hotels who can use thier Spectralink phone to make calls to themselves, the home office in Sheboygan, any other hotel in thier network and even out to the PBX who could save money just by eliminating long distance.

P.S. I have not seen a design yet that allows for more than 8 simultaneous calls on any one AP. This is all that Cisco will support, for example. Most people go less than that to build some cushion into the design.

www.spectralink.com

go read abut the phones and the SVP servers...if any of it makes sense to you get back to me....


Happy birthday, btw!

[wirelessoceans]

Congrats Bob on your 61st!!!!!!

Your dedication and thirst for knowledge is inspirational.

About VOIP and WLAN.

First in hotels, phone revenue is a substantial revenue stream for hotels and VOIP cuts into this dramatically. Unless you can meter the usage which is a whole new animal.

Voip bandwidth: generally you need 128k dedicated to make a good voip call but with compression technologies and QoS you can get away with as low as 16k dedicated. If you throttle user bandwidth you will have more BW for VOIP but your internet surfers will have a slower connection. Its kinda of a trade off without true QoS over the network and quality will suffer, but it will work. You can use skype.com over a wi-fi hotspot connection and definatly talk to someone on the other side of the globe, it just wont be a telco quality call.

Generally us middle men are cut out from VOIP to endusers in the wi-fi scenario. Endusers can use VOIP over any highspeed connection (your hotel or mine) without restriction and we will never know it.

Like the vipernetworks.com line of products. As long as there is no authentication (except USB phone) involved you can use their wireless VOIP service on any wired or wireless network and the ISP doesnt get any money. The customer pays Viper directly and you wouldnt know. In fact there were probably a few voip users on your hotel networks to date...but you will never know.

SO, for you to offer VOIP or not is not really your choice and you will not be able to bill. Also, your hotels will usually not be thrilled about it either so its a losing proposition.

There are many carrier grade AP's with QoS (ie Cisco and YDI) but they are expensive and difficult to spec for a hotel job and make any money. As both spider and greg suggest, this is really an arena for the big boys because of the capital expenditures and equipment requirements that true VOIP service needs to be a "phone replacement".

It's a great technology but it probably wont put any money in our pockets in a hotspot sense. Now offering VOIP to the hotel for all phone calls is a different situatio and required alot of $$$$$$$$$$, patience, and tons of experience...not to mention a decent amount of BW.

Happy Birthday!

[golfnut]

Oceans and Spider covered everything on VOIP so I just wanted to add....

HAPPY BIRTHDAY!

Greg

[BobY777]

Wow.

Thanks much to you all.

I have to run for now. Will try to type more later this evening.

I don't feel 61. I might look more like 39 or 40...lol. Although my wife's cooking made me lose some hair...lol. Just kidding.

Have a real nice day to you all.

Bob

[BobY777]

Hi All again:

I had a lot going on today. So couldn't write more til now.

I see from spiderbite that I should more correctly be calling this "WVoIP".

If I could sell more WiFi I could afford to party a little more...lol.

Unfortunately, I'm finding that this WiFi stuff, although technically challanging and very interesting (cause I love working with antennas and transmitters, etc.), just isn't growing as well as I had hoped. Most of the hotels are still sitting on the fence waiting to see what their franchise associations will dictate. Of course the big franchise associations already have WiFi installed in their hotels (where price is no object).

So only the small to medium ones seem to be left.

I must have done at least 25 site surveys so far, but most haven't done anything yet or a few hotels have gone for the lowest price and lowest quality, poorest security WiFi system they could get installed (no Internet gateway...just a simple router).

At least I learned a little more about computers in the last two years.

I'm hoping the ones left will eventually make a decision to get this work done.

Fortunatly the few we have done are relatively nearby. We have done some business wireless before for our business clients.

So we will still support these nearby hotels, just as we do our regular business to business clients.

It's just that I'm really wondering if there is enough WiFi out there to support me. I'll probably know in the next month or two. Then will have to make some kind of employment desicion if the work isn't there.

I got into this because I was laid off of my Verizon Wireless system performance job of 16 years. 2000 people laid off a little more then 2 years ago. I'm just trusting that God will lead me into the right area.

What happened to me is exactly why my son (who owns the company I work for), wants no part of a big corporation. And he would have been a real good catch too. They even tried to hire him twice quite a while back.

He use to work for a cable advertising corporation, in charge of the electronics and computer departments. Then struck out on his own when business owner friends of his asked him to help them with their networks.

Plus he is doing much better in his business then I did working for Verizon Wireless...and thats after I was there 16 years.

So our networking dept. is very busy. He needs to hire more people I understand. They all had to work late tonight on some networking job. So the company itself is doing great. It's just the WiFi part, that I'm trying to get going, isn't all that great.

Unfortunately I'm networking challanged, so I wouldn't be a good networking employee. Although I have helped out in marketing some.

I even use to teach electronics in college for 5 years. That was fun, but I got into cellular back then. If I had it to do over, I think I would have been a math teacher, since I love math. Maybe I'll figure what it is I want to do when I grow up...lol.

I got to do something to make up for the layoff that Verizon Wireless did to me. The corporation just didn't care what they did to us...and after the years I put into helping to build the cellular network. XO&%$#!@*& (I did that so I wouldn't say any bad words...lol).

Some pretty good looking WiFi locations, seemed to not have materialized yet...for me or anyone else either.

Maybe this VoIP will be something to look into. Maybe even for our B2B clients.

I'm sure if this VoIP is used in public wireless places, that it could be problematic, with all the data flowing also.

I'm glad you all are on here, since I value your input. Helps me figure out this technical stuff better.

I see what you are saying Oceans...about the QoS. Yep...I wouldn't be surprised if someone hasn't already used VoIP at one of the WiFi locations we have.

I would hope there is some way to do a name and password on one of the WVoIP phones. Although I'm not all that sure who makes them yet. But more will probably be hitting the market.

Well I'd better go to bed for now. I have a marketing meeting tomorrow at 10 AM, with a guy who sells T1, T3, and fiber optic lines for the telcos. I'm hoping we might be able to partner in some way.

Thanks for the happy birthday wishes. I really don't feel 61. My wife and grandson had a little birthday cake for me this evening.

See ya

[BobY777]

Gee, I got to remember better what I read from you guys. Maybe I have dirty glasses...lol.

I saw the Spectralink web site that you mentioned spiderbite. And I also noticed the Zyxel WVoIP phone. I forget who mentioned that. And there is the XJ100 phone (although I couldn't get anyone from the Net2phone company to admit they sold it).

So there are three WVoIP phones there.

I'll look closer at them.

[spiderbite]

healthcare never runs out of money...and they usually do not participate in recessions or slumps.


random thoughts.....