Click to See Complete Forum and Search --> : A Free Wireless "internet"... with MS's help :)


OzarkBard
07-22-2003, 01:22 PM
What I am about to explain... some of you already know of. I am basically tattletelling a concept to take advantage of current open 802.11 standards in conjunction with MS XP's Wireless Zero Config service.

If any of you have been frequenting the "Troubleshooting" section of this forum, you may have come across a current problem with MS XP's Wireless Zero Config service, in which customers' using wireless laptop cards or USB clients (anything that keeps the ESSID in the computer instead of the wireless unit) will automatically try to jump onto nearby wireless AP's. Some people have posted workarounds pertaining to some particuliar equipment, but the majority still seem to be afflicted with this problem. However, along with this "bug" comes a forethought.... and I know that what I'm about to explain will make ISP's cringe....

Since wireless routers are now under $100, more and more people are buying them. The problem (or blessing depending on how you look at it), is that all of the newer ones are setup to plug right into an ISP's ethernet client (DSL, cable modem, most fixed wireless broadband) right out of the box... i.e. JoeBob-next-door can just plug this puppy into his cable modem and serve wirelessly without even having to setup the router (DHCP by default, and one simple button to clone MAC's to get around Radius servers), and it only takes a smattering of knowledge to set them up on different network configs.

Still with me? I went on about a 15-mile wardrive through the outlaying areas with a $50 antennae, about $50 cabling, and $300 one-watt amplifier... and was able to get onto at least 12 AP's with great signal, get an IP and pull web pages. A one-watt amp is able to go through at least one light outside wall and maintain signal with a small wireless router... routers that "normal" people just plug in and don't bother configuring since it works right out of the box. The most interesting aspect of this whole scenario is I'm in the middle of BFE!!! This town is about 50,000 residents in the middle of the poorest region of the US, with nothing bigger within a 2-hour drive... I can imagine what it would be like in a bigger city or the outlaying suburbs. With XP's "bug" automatically jumping to other AP's.. it creates the possibility of even the most inept wireless user the ability to "steal" internet. (although it's still a pain in the @ss if you want to remain on JUST THAT DAMN AP.. NO OTHERS!! GRR!!). And on the same account, someone that IS "technically proficient" can get into a LOT of mischief with a stolen connection... the ISP can only track as far as that customer that has the wireless AP. Yes, the customer can use WEP encryption (or other means of security), but the point is that most people simply won't bother.

Now, hehe, all illegal thoughts aside, there is also new possibility... sitting in my home a couple of weeks ago, I was able to connect to my buddy's wireless AP across the street and share files with his PC (although this can be done with almost any wireless equipment, XP's Zero Wireless Config makes it easy for "the common man"). He, in turn, shared that file with another guy about half mile away. This gave me an epiphany... it will only be a matter of time before someone creates an app or entirely new protocol for computer users with their own wireless AP to share files between other wireless clients, thereby creating essentially a new "internet". The technology is already there and open, it's just going to take some simplifying to get a large number of people to make this feasible... but the possibility is there with current standards!

As I said, some of you already understand this, but since MS has basically paved the road to common people stealing wireless internet with it's Wireless Zero Config service, I may as well openly post it for those that are "not so wirelessly inclined". I'm going wardriving this weekend in a larger city suburb; I just wonder how many AP's Ill be able to jump onto? >:)

jatkins679
07-22-2003, 04:32 PM
You can already share whatever files you want (if you want to) using APs or whatever networking hardware you want to use. Wireless networking equipment isn't a consideration when it comes to apps or protocols that can share files between network nodes because that is layer 3 and up stuff. The WLAN technology itself is purposely layer one and layer 2; so it doesn't matter what protocols or upper-layer apps you use.

I'm not sure what you are proposing since it's a little unclear. If you're proposing that all/most AP owners eventually set up their WLANs for anyone passing by to use, that ain't gonna happen for just one very good reason: getting hacked. Nor should it happen, IMHO.

I don't want any strangers using my WLAN because there are too many ne'er-do-wells out there who would LOVE to get their hands on anyone else's network just to phuck things up on that WLAN. Open WLAN access is not a benefit given how many people out there would mess it up. And even if I did trust others to use my WLAN, I don't trust the people they necessarily trust to use theirs.

Plus, the ISPs aren't going to go for it since it will cost them customers (one household internet connection can serve more than one household), nor is everyone going to like the idea of others 'freeloading' off something they have to pay for.

In any case, no one should run an open WLAN because you are taking a huge chance on not just having your own machine/files messed up, but someone commandeering your internet-connected machines to do other worse things.

OzarkBard
07-22-2003, 06:14 PM
Hehe, I believe you caught my point entirely. I posted this to bring attention to the vunerabilities of wireless when common customers use them. My point is that since these wireless AP's work right-out-of-the-box, the common person isn't going to go to the trouble of configuring the AP properly.. thereby unknowingly leaving their wireless network open. And since these AP's are getting so cheap and easy to use, a LOT of people are buying them. My example was from a comparatively smaller city in the middle of the lowest median income per household area. This weekend I'm going wardriving in a larger city, I'm betting on twice the open AP's.

I'm not saying what people SHOULD do, we all know that. I'm saying the majority of people WON'T do it... the majority of peope that buy a wireless router will just plug it in and leave it once they can feed internet to their laptop. I may make out most customers to be ignorant of most security issues... but after over 10,000 tech support calls that's exactly the problem. Out of thousands of our dialup and broadband customers, over half still don't use any form of anti-virus... how in the heck are they going to make sense of setting up WEP? The concept may seem simple to people like you and me, but the common person will not bother with it... that's why the manufacturers of most wireless routers have the default settings to automatically work with the majority of broadband internet providers' networks.

Several of us have posted in these forums the "XP Wireless Zero Config" service bug, and some of us have tried to contact MS about this to no avail for several months now. I'm (perhaps vainly) hoping that if more people realize the effects of this, MS will actually do something about it. If not, well they created this crappile...

As for me, I can get free internet from my house with about $500 of extra equipment... with at least 3 wireless AP's to choose from and still get great signal (I have more then double that with marginal signal)... The purpose of this post isn't telling everyone how to steal internet service, it's to tell everyone that wake up to current security issues and not to completely trust the default settings of equipment that they buy and setup themselves... it's to let MS know that their "Wireless Zero Config" service has increased the chances of stealing internet wirelessly by making it easy for even the common person (i.e. they dont have to manually put in wireless settings with this service, they just have to install the driver for the wireless equipment!)

Al_2003
07-27-2003, 10:22 PM
I understand your WAR DRIVE and what you are explaing but I am New to the wireless idea. Live in a bad rural area. No DSL, NO CABLE and there are three wireless providers circle me and all three say I am about 5 miles out of reange to get service.
You described your war drive and I understand open AP. You said you use an a $50 antenna, the wire and amplifier. I AM SUCH A NEWBIE! I have looked around at several places that have wireless equipt but could spot nothing that you attach an antenna to. GUESS IT IS A DUMMY QUESTION BUT WAS TOLD THERE ARE NO DUMB QUESTIONS SO HERE GOES.. What is between your antenna and the computer to pick up a signal. The largest place I had to look was Fry's electronics and they had an antenna that was $169 but I didn't see any type router, AP or any thing that the antenna would be plugged into.
SO just CURIOUS how I can also do a war drive and find internet since I can't even pay for any thing above 26.4 over the phone line dial up.
THANKS

Firmware Guy
07-28-2003, 06:42 PM
Did it ever occur to you that maybe WZC works that way because that's the way Microsoft wants it to work?

Hey Al, I hate to hurt your feelings but if there isn't any cable, DSL or other high speed Internet in your neighborhood then you aren't going to find that using your WiFi antenna, because your neighbors (within WiFi range) are also stuck with dialups. (Satellite operates everywhere, maybe a nice neighbor have that!)

Al_2003
07-29-2003, 04:29 AM
Thanks FIRMWEAR GUY,
Didn't hurt my feelings but maybe you missed that there are 3 different wireless providers around me. All say I am just out side their prividing range. So was just wondering about those they provide to haveing open AP and doing a war drive in the car. I found a little Kensington device to sniff out WiFi. Not sure how good it is have had it just two days. It has 4 lights. If it works it is kinda compact and neat. First light blinks red while seeking and then if it finds a weak sig it turns green. As a signal is stronger the next light shows up green. I have been into the small county seat and gotten hits to the first light and second light. I am assuming it is picking up open AP or Router. Pardon my not being to literate but TRYING TO LEARN. I would go down the street and back and sometimes the signal was there and other times it was not. The instructions say it will not pick up wirelss phones on same sig but I am wondering about that . Guess a war drive with computer and antenna would prove yes or no. So my original question still stands about and antenna and type or card for lap top to use external antenna. I have tried to look around but not alot of luck. Seems there might be an older model of the Orinoco
and the information seems to lead that the newer model does not take an external antenna.
THANKS AND ANY MORE HELP ALWAYS APPRECIATED. Glad to see folks here are not FLAMING LIKE OVER AT NETSTUMBLER. I always heard there is no dumb question but I saw some heavy FLAMING over at NETSTUMBLER. Seems to me we all have to learn some things and ever searching doesn't beat someone giving a HELPING HAND NOW AND THEN.
THANKS AGAIN
AL

yonah
07-30-2003, 10:42 AM
Funny, I wrote an article on my own web site: http://www.bonerosity.com/wifisecurity.html about a similar subject. The idea, that once you are on a Wireless LAN, it is as if you are on the same wired network. You'd be surprised how many people don't realize this.

I picked up a neighbors Wireless LAN yesterday, and even though he managed to configure his router so that I couldn't get a WAN IP, he didn't change the default password on the Router admin page - and I was able to log in and look at his settings. That was with nothing more than a standard WLAN card. I have also configured some WLANs in manhattan apartment buildings and have

OzarkBard
07-31-2003, 10:55 PM
Ahhh yonah gets it.. is that all? Is that the only one that sees the potentially catastrophic goof that could snowball us into a networking nightmare?

jsicuran
07-31-2003, 11:36 PM
Kind of like my rooftop stumbler project. I mounted a high gain directional and a yagi on my roof with an antenna rotor so I can stumble the neighborhood from my home. I also use it for ptp testing etc. If I throw on the amp I get more "homes" et al but I mostly use the amp for testing. Eventually I will get the pics on my website. Maybe next week. But the fellas are correct here most folks are not going to open up their internet connection for fear of misuse. The hot spot revolution is happening and the telcos are getting into too. Plus wifi phones are on their way into the mainstream soon. IN nyc most of the verizons phone booths will soon have built in APs in them if not already. Building it out so they may consider wisp like usage and move from cell to vo-wifi in the future. A possibility.

Back to the lab, better get off this guy's connection now:)

Regards.